Michelle Hart is an author and feminine expansion mentor who helps women transform their lives & align with their purpose through pleasure, rewilding, and the art of sensual ritual. She is also one of my dearest friends, and my go-to person when I want to talk about food, chefs, restaurants, or recipes. So I was thrilled that Michelle chose a cookbook as her Best Book Ever. You are going to love this episode, as we go into a deep dive about the perfect biscuit, the perfect egg, and the perfect potatoes, and why “The Food Lab” is the Best Book Ever.
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Books discussed in this episode
The Food Lab by J. Kenji Lopez Alt
Kenji Lopez Alt Website/YouTube
Howard’s End by E.M. Forster
Art Institute of Atlanta – Culinary Academy
Confituras Little Kitchen, Austin, TX
Fixe Southern House Restaurant, Austin, TX
Salt Fat Acid Heat: Mastering the Elements of Good Cooking by Samin Nosrat
Plenty by Yotam Ottolenghi
The Joy of Cooking by Irma S. Rombauer
Half Baked Harvest by Tieghan Gerard
Well + Good Cookbook by Alexia Brue and Melisse Gelula
The New York Times Cooking No-Recipe Recipes by Sam Sifton
The Love and Lemons Cookbook by Jeanine Donofrio
Love and Lemons Every Day by Jeanine Donofrio
Graze: Inspiration for Small Plates and Meandering Meals by Suzanne Lenzer
Discussed in our Patreon Conversation:
We had a fun food/kitchen speed round in this part of the chat:
What foods are always in your kitchen?
What will you never eat, no matter how it’s prepared?
What’s your best restaurant experience?
What’s your go-to meal that you prepare when you want to impress someone?
What food can you not make?
The Soul of an Octopus: A Surprising Exploration Into the Wonder of Consciousness by Sy Montgomery
My Octopus Teacher
El Farallon restaurant, Cabo San Lucas, Mexico (Holy hell – Michelle was not kidding. Check out the pictures of this place.)
The Boy Who Bakes Espresso Rye Chocolate Chip Cookies
(Note: Some of the above links are affiliate links, meaning I get a few bucks off your purchase at no extra expense to you. Anytime you shop for books, you can use my affiliate link on Bookshop, which also supports Indie Bookstores around the country. If you’re shopping for everything else – clothes, office supplies, couches, gluten free pasta – use my affiliate link for Amazon. Thank you for helping to keep the Best Book Ever Podcast in business!)
Hello, Bookworms, welcome to the Best Book Ever, the podcast where we talk about your favorite books. I’m your host, Julie Strauss, and I am so excited for you to meet today’s guest Michelle Hart, an author and feminine expansion mentor who helps women transform their lives and align with their purpose. She’s also one of my dearest friends. We both love to cook and talk about food and chefs and restaurants, and I was thrilled when Michelle chose a cookbook to talk to me about today. If you’re not hungry yet, you will be when you finish this episode, you are going to love hearing Michelle tell me why The Food Lab by Kenji Lopez Alt is the Best Book Ever.
For more on how to support this podcast, Check out my Patreon. For about the cost of a latte, you can have access to it all sorts of extra goodies. Every week, you’ll get exclusive interview clips with my guests that are only available to patrons. I also send out advanced notice of the books we discuss, curated reading lists, my monthly reading wrap-ups including the good, the bad and the DNFs, and essays about the reading life.
Now, back to the show.
Julie Strauss: Hi, Michelle. Welcome to the Best Book Ever Podcast.
Michelle Hart: Hey, Julie, I’m really happy to be here.
JS: I’m so happy to see you. You know, I have been saying since the beginning of this podcast, that I truly want people to choose any book that they love. You are the first person who really believed me when I said that, because you chose a cookbook and I was so excited. Are you one of these weirdos, like me, who reads cookbooks cover to cover, like a story?
MH: Cover to cover. And I gotta tell you, I don’t think I ever told you this, that when you first started this podcast, I was elated because I love the premise, but I was also secretly terrified because I don’t have a favorite book. I have so many favorite books and I have favorite books in different categories or for different phases of my life. And our little writer circle always has their favorite books. If someone says Howard’s End to me, you are the first person I think of. But then, when the idea that I could choose a cookbook came up, I was like, oh, this, this is going to be really hard for Julie because it’s like a textbook. I almost went with my first culinary school textbook, “On Cooking.” It would’ve been like the 1999 edition. So it had been really old and difficult for you to find. But then this man that I’ve been dating referred me to this book. And opened my eyes. It’s basically like a modern version of my first culinary school textbook and I just fell in love with it. It’s called The Food Lab by J Kenji Lopez Alt, and he’s all over the internet doing cooking things and videos and has great little shorts on YouTube. A lot of people might’ve seen him there. But this book is a James Beard Foundation Award winner. I think the International Association of Culinary Professionals gave it an award. It’s just intense and I love it, but I’m enthusiastic.
JS: Before we get to this actual book, because I really want to talk to you about this book, but I want to back up for a second. You went to culinary academy?
MH: I did. I graduated a year early from high school and wasn’t quite sure what I was going to do. I got into UT, A&M, Clemson, and USC, and kind of found myself in this limbo where I couldn’t get student loans without my parents’ help. It was a really weird time in my life. So I decided to put off undergrad for a while until I was old enough to sign contracts and do things on my own. I found my way to culinary school in the midst of that. I went to the art Institute of Atlanta and it’s only a year and a half associates program. I’ve been cooking since I was, you know, pre 10 years old and cooking entire elaborate meals for my family from like 13 and up. So the opportunity to go to culinary school just felt like a fun adventure in the kitchen to me at the time. I realized in culinary school that I did not want to work in a kitchen. But through that I got to study in Austria; I got to study in Paris. I learned, pretty much, culinary school at that level, that associate’s degree, it’s mostly just technique. And learning how to work in a kitchen, learning food costing, ordering, storage techniques. All the different things you need to know for a restaurant. I did a food writing course and briefly thought that I would be a food anthropologist because Good Eats had just come out, and it was a thing that was going on. But I also like money. I decided not to do that. Um, but I’m just fascinated by like the science of food and the stories behind food and how we get to the dishes that we get to. And the science of food fascinates me in a way that no other science really ever has.
JS: Was it the physical labor part of it that made you decide you didn’t want to work in a kitchen or was it something else?
MH: You’re going to laugh at this knowing my career history: I found that chefs in general tended to be very high strung individuals with attitude problems, and it was a very stressful environment. So, I went into law instead. Law is not really that different than being in the kitchen, it’s just less hot temperature wise.
JS: Nicer suits, I would think.
MH: Yeah. And now, cooking and food is this very grounding activity for me. And it’s the way that I show love. And I show nurturing both to myself and to other people. It’s been a really interesting transition for me. Cooking to survive as a child to cooking to please and nurture my family as a teenager to cooking for what I thought might be a career to now just being something that just nourishes me.
JS: Tell me what kind of cook you are. Like what’s a Tuesday night Michelle meal?
MH: I am really at home for the most part. If I’m cooking just for myself, I’m primarily plant-based. So one of the things that I will do a lot is just sauteed veggies. Just very lightly sauteed or blanched or steamed with some seasoning, maybe with a side of pasta or some rice. I really like kind of just farmer, peasant type meals at night. Like this really nice organic ground chicken that I sauté with onions and garlic, and then throw him snap peas and put that over some rice and season it well, and it’s just really simple. Whatever fresh herbs I happen to have. A lot of times it’s just about things in my fridge from the farmer’s market that I’m going to use with this technique that I feel like doing. Which is most frequently just a quick sauté. But as we’re getting into the a hundred degree temperatures now, it’s huge salads. Big salads. I might do something fancy, like a panko crusted goat cheese on top, if I’m feeling really insane. Just little goat, cheese balls, flatten them out, quick egg wash, panko crust, sauté them, put them on top of the salad and then you can just like squish them out. They’re warm and gooey, a little bit of lemon juice and that kind of forms the dressing. So good.
JS: So you liked cooking because you can improvise.
MH: Yeah. Part of why I like this book so much is that it’s an invitation. Whereas baking, you have to really know the science of everything you’re doing. If you want to create a recipe from the ground up, you can’t just like, put something on the stove and say, oh, I’m out of this spice, I’m going to replace it with this. You can do it a little bit in baking, but it doesn’t always end well.
JS: as we were preparing for this and you and I texted back and forth several times about different recipes we wanted to try. And I mentioned these biscuit recipes in this Food Lab sure looks good. And you immediately texted back, Yes, I am a biscuit slut.
MH: Yes. Yes I am.
JS: Ms. Biscuits Slut, did you end up making the biscuits in the book?
MH: I did, I did. Hold on. I’m flipping to the recipe right now. I made some notes on it. Did you make the biscuits?
JS: I did make the biscuits.
MH: Okay. Which ones did you make? The flaky buttermilk ones?
JS: I made the cheddar and scallion.
MH: Oh, okay. So I did just straight up flaky buttermilk. What did you think?
JS: I thought they were terrible. Here’s the thing: before I cooked every single thing in this book, I set my rule for myself that I am not going to alter anything, even though that’s always my instinct when I’m cooking. Oh, that sounds like a lot of salt. I’m going to pull that back because it’s my dinner. But I think for the purpose of this podcast and talking to you, I’m going to follow it down to the grain of salt. I followed everything and my biscuits, the cheddar scallion biscuits, they didn’t rise. And I had brand new ingredients. So it wasn’t the – I forgot what the leavening agent in that was, but probably baking soda?
MH: Baking powder and baking soda.
JS: Both of mine were new. So I knew that wasn’t the problem. And they just, they didn’t rise and they were dense and they were very salty, I thought.
JS: Tell me yours.
MH: So I just went with the straight up buttermilk biscuit recipe. Again, not a rule follower over here at all. What I did was I did one teaspoon of kosher salt, and then half of the unsalted butter I replaced with salted butter. So I actually added more salt, but in a different format. And then for the sour cream, instead of sour cream, I actually used Forager’s cashew yogurt, plain. So it’s more of like a plain Greek yogurt flavor. Because sour cream can tend to have kind of a saltier flavor too. So maybe that was part of it. But because I’m doing more dairy free stuff, I was like, there’s already a buttermilk. If I put sour cream in there, it might be a lot. But I’m wondering if part of the rise issue was the cheddar itself. Six ounces that it feels like a lot.
JS: A lot. Yes. It was heavy dairy.
MH: Yeah. And part of what that was one of the things like had I not been preparing for this podcast, I would’ve looked at that and gone, no, this method is not going to work. It’s so much.
JS: And trust me: I never say no to a ton of cheese. Biut they were just really, I mean, they were fine. Everyone had one and I was like, yeah, it was, it was fine. Okay. Tell me what a perfect biscuit is.
MH: Okay. So I have a couple of schools of thought on biscuits. They’re like books. There’s no one favorite biscuit. There are the Southern fluffy biscuits and these, like, he calls these flaky and I, I agree that they were flaky-ish. But there’s a biscuit shop here in town called Confituras. They’re famous for making jams and jellies, but they started making biscuits as vehicles to sell their jams and jellies and their biscuits are phenomenal. So they are these laminated biscuits that are more like croissant layers. I think there’s 108 layers on their biscuits. They’re like this thick. You cut them open, and like each half of the biscuit is like a biscuit in and of itself. And it’s just so good. I love like, just being able to like slip some butter in between layers of a biscuit and let it melt. And they also have gluten-free biscuits there that are just as good as the regular ones, which is just a feat I don’t even understand. There’s a witchcraft going on in that shop for sure. So if I had to pick a favorite biscuit here in town, it would be that. But there’s also a place called Fixe that does like a really wonderful Southern fluffy. Like your-grandmother-just-made-these-and-handed-them-to-you type biscuit. I’m also a big fan of the old school Bisquick box mix drop biscuits, which is, you know, might be sacrilege to say, but they’re good. But I would have loved to see a laminated biscuit situation in here, but I think what we’re dealing with is we’re dealing with a cook and not a baker. He definitely has explored and experimented with things and knows a lot of techniques and differences, but teaching someone to create a laminated biscuit in a cookbook is going to be a really big feat.
JS: Oh yeah.
MH: Like that’s something you take a class for.
JS: So where do his biscuits land? Cause yours came out okay. Where would you say they land into your pantheon of great biscuits.
MH: Yes, I will make these biscuits again. I was really turned off by the addition of the cheese and the other things to them. I don’t know that I would add anything else to them. Again, I will say I did make sausage gravy with them so that might’ve played into play into what I thought about the overall biscuit situation. He has a biscuit recipe, easy cream biscuits that are really quick. That looked pretty good. I might try those next because I do like something that’s just like quick. You know, it’s just me. I live alone. So cooking elaborate things that make 8 to 12 servings is kind of a big deal. I would say like for the biscuits that I make at home, I’ll definitely make those again. They will be probably be my third or fourth choice. And part of the reason is because I keep a stash of frozen Confituras biscuits in my freezer at all times now.
JS: So this book, The Food Lab, it is gigantic.
MH: Yeah. It’s 958 pages.
JS: How would you describe it?
MH: So I would describe it… It’s not just a cookbook and a lot of cookbooks, you know, they run the gamut from a memoir cookbook to just straight up cookbook, to here’s how you change your entire lifestyle. Like they’ve got different angles on them. This one, I would just call a really phenomenal reference cookbook. It opens with conversions and pantry staples and kitchen gear and why you should choose this item over that item. And one of the big things I did was changing my cutting boards when I first started reading this book because I realized that the wood cutting boards I had just weren’t up to par. So I started changing how I dealt with my kitchen implements before I ever looked at any of the recipes in it. You know, I just kind of flipped through and was like, these all look good. But I started from the beginning going, how does this guy who spends all of his time experimenting, how does he find about the best tools and the best implements and how does he care for his stuff? Because that’s something that’s really important to me at this point in my life, is just having good stuff that lasts a long time, rather than buying whatever works for the moment and having to replace stuff. After that, it moves into spices, salts, things you need, then techniques. And I loved that it starts with 30 pages on how to cook eggs.
JS: Okay. Did you make any of Kenji Lopez’s egg recipes?
MH: So I did. And this was actually, I don’t want to call it a relationship, but nearly a situationship-ending discussion with, um, we’ll call him Psych Daddy. The psychologist who put me onto this book over the question of what you actually add to scrambled eggs.
JS: Salt and pepper. That is all. Do not add dairy. Don’t even talk to me.
MH: This is why we’re friends. I add a splash of filtered water, like a splash. And then I add pepper before cooking the scrambled eggs. I add salt towards the end because the salt affects the way the eggs cook. It draws moisture out too quickly, in my opinion. And then I cook them very low and slow. On page 119, there’s a whole discussion on when you salt the eggs that you’re about to scramble. I did go back and like do a little experiment. It changes. The coloring, it changes the composition in some way, which is really fascinating to me. Psych Daddy thinks that we should add things to our scrambled eggs. He thinks that we should add milk or cream, and this was his reasoning: water and oil. The oil from the eggs do not blend. They don’t emulsify. My response to that was that maybe the problem was not the water, but his whisking technique.
JS: I’m not sure you should go after a man and his whisk.
MH: Right. He’s got a very big whisk. Maybe it’s just not using it right.
JS: So what was your opinion of the scrambled eggs that you made using Kenji’s recipe?
MH: I disagree that to get fluffy scrambled eggs you have to use relatively high heat, because I always cook over medium to medium low, and I do it low and slow. And I’m not a super patient person, but slow with eggs really makes a difference. He also says that for creamy eggs, stirring constantly is preferable. I find that actually gets you a lot of smaller curds that I don’t want. I basically leave my eggs there and then I’ll kind of push them from the edge of the pan to the center and then kind of swirl them around and then let them sit again. And it’s a very patient process. The eggs are like a lover. It’s like foreplay. You don’t want to rush them through to the end. Maybe it’s that I treat my eggs like a woman and we’re dealing with men cooking eggs and they’re just rushing through.
JS: Whisk it and get out of the kitchen.
MH: I don’t know, I’m sorry.
JS: Did you try any potato recipes? Tell me what you made.
MH: My favorite recipe and this whole book iss a super crispy roasted potatoes on page 474. And again, it’s another situation where it’s not just a recipe. It’s an experimentation of like, I did it this way, then I did it this way. And here’s pictures of all the different ways that you do. It it’s a multi-step process, but man, the resulting potatoes are like the best you will ever make in your home oven. The key is you’ve got to peel them first. You don’t have to, but I tried this two different ways. I really liked the peel on my potato. They didn’t get as crispy with a peel on for me. So I’ll do them probably most often with a peel on, but I wanted to really perfect them for the sake of this podcast. So for the sake of pure potato perfection, I would say peel them. So you cut them up, and you’re going to boil them until they’re fork tender, and you pull them out, kind of shake them off so they’re a little bit dry. And you’re going to spread them out on a baking sheet. What he does that I love is the way he did the oil. You heat the oil on your stove top, and you put garlic, herbs, whatever flavoring you want in that oil. And then you take a sieve and you drain that so that the oil is clear again. And that’s the oil that you put on the potatoes. You put them in a bowl. And you rough the potatoes up, you just shake the bowl back and forth so you start to get kind of like a pasty potato layer kind of showing up, and then you put the oil on and you toss them in that oil and then you spread it out and you’re roasting them. Meanwhile, you’ve saved it all this herb and garlic deliciousness that you’ve drained off. When they come out of the oven, you take that and you toss it in. And then if you want to add any cheese or anything, you do that, then you add those sauteed herbs back in because otherwise you’re going to burn them. So all of your aromatics would just go to hell. This way, like, I don’t know why it had never occurred to me in my entire life to do that, to like pull the aromatics out and then add them back in. It’s always been like, just risk them getting burnt, and that’s what you deal with. Or don’t use them at all. This was such an easy solution that I think this man might be my hero for the rest of my life, because just look at the best fucking potatoes in the world.
JS: Did you make anything that was not good?
MH: Not yet. I will say there were things that I went to do that I looked at and I was like, this is way too extra and I’m not doing it.
JS: The only complaints I had were flavor complaints. For example, the marinated kale salad with chickpeas and sumac onions. As I was making it, I was thinking it was gonna be too much sumac. If you’re not used to it, it’s already tangy and can be strange. And I was thinking, oh, this is too much. But the technique is fantastic. And as soon as I tasted it, right away I went, Nope, that was too much. It’s too sour. It doesn’t ruin the entire dish, but I’m going to use that technique forever. So like I see exactly what you’re saying. It’s so if what you want to do is learn how food works, this book is the reference. And then you play with the flavors a little bit. And go, okay. Let’s dial back the sumac a little bit, Kenji. I need to not blow out my palate. But maybe that’s just a purely taste thing. He might really like super sour.
MH: Yeah. And taste is so subjective. Some people have the supertaster thing going on. Some people have genetic predispositions to certain things or dislike certain things. There’s allergies, there’s so many different components that go into whether someone likes something or not. I’ve got friends that my culinary arsenal is completely drilled down because they have the palate of a five-year-old. And so I have to be really careful and I kind of season the food for them. And then I’m kind of like, it doesn’t really have enough spice or salt or anything. But I love that you enjoyed the technique and are like, this is a thing that I want to make again with a different seasoning pattern.
JS: Yeah. I liked it a lot. I like, I think it’s a really, really good cookbook. So tell me: when you’re looking for cookbooks, what is it that you look for?
MH: I have a couple of different criteria. Primarily, I want to learn because learning is just the crux of the experience for me. just finding something that somebody else has a different perspective on. It might be a technique I’ve been doing my whole life, but if they’re like, Hey, you thought about doing it this way instead. Yeah. I’ll try that once, maybe twice. And if I don’t like it, I won’t do it again. I’m always looking for the next evolution of the things that I love. There’s this really wonderful moment of knowing that you’re content and you’re satisfied and you’re present with where you are, but you also know that it can be better. And you’re open to that unfolding every direction it can. Learning through my cookbooks is a big deal. Salt, Fat, Acid, Heat is one of my favorite cookbooks, another like very learning-based cookbook. I also like lifestyle change type things where they’re looking at like, Hey, I was living like this and then this thing happened and I had to change my whole diet and it was devastated, and then I discovered this way of eating. They’re not really putting you on a diet per se, but they’re like, here is my modern approach to Ayurvedic diets or here is my modern approach to Farm ToTable cooking, or just eating fresh or eating clean. It’s things that inspire and teach. If you just put a book in front of me and you’re like, here’s some recipes to help you lose weight, it’s going to bore me to death. It’s not going to inspire me. And they’ve got to have gorgeous pictures.
JS: What do you think are like mandatory cookbooks to have in your kitchen?
MH: And, and I mean, I want you to include in there the ones that you have – I have several that I own that I never cook out of, but I love them. I love reading them. I think they’re gorgeously shot gorgeously written recipes, but just too fancy or too expensive or whatever. So what are some staples of your pantry?
JS: That’s Ottolenghi, right?
JS: I have that one.
MH: You have that one? Okay. So good. I think, honestly, The Joy of Cooking is one that I think probably everyone should have, just because it’s a classic. It’s the kind of book that helps people get into cooking. Half Baked Harvest is a favorite of mine. Um, there is a newer one that I’ve gotten that I would recommend a lot, it’s called Well + Good. I’ve only made a few things from it, but it’s really wonderful and beautifully written. The New York Times has a cookbook called New York Times Cooking No-Recipe Recipes. I think that one is a really great one for people to just kind of start cooking and absorbing things to just have in your memory so that when you’re somewhere you can just cook a thing. I think for a lot of us, the art of having a recipe passed down orally and then just being in our brains is gone. We may have a few. But my bolognaise recipe is passed down to me. I couldn’t write it down if I tried. I have tried a few times. I don’t know how to do it, because I make it differently every time. There’s always a little bit of a different thing and it’s by feel and by sense. Like if I tried to tell somebody do this, I’d be like, and then when it smells the way it’s supposed to smell you add this thing. Probably why I didn’t become a food writer! Love and Lemons is one of my favorites. A lot of these are more plant-based things. I actually have Love and Lemons and Love and Lemons Every Day. Both of those, I think, are really wonderful. I have one more that I want to mention to you, because of your love of charcuterie. There’s a book called Graze. The subtitle is “Inspiration for Small Plates and Meandering Meals.” The photo – if you have time to look it up, it’s a really beautiful charcuterie board right on the front of the cover, and a big hunk of bread. I’m loving more and more now, the idea of just having people over again and having little food stations across the place and just letting people meander and socialize. You know, the idea of socializing around food with people outside your house is becoming a thing again. And this one is one that I haven’t opened up yet because I haven’t let myself think of that quite yet, but I think it’s going to be next on my list to explore, because I just really want to create an experience.
JS: That would be my last meal. If I were being executed tomorrow, I would ask for a charcuterie plate and a glass of rose.
MH: Oh man.
JS: I think it’s a perfect, perfect meal.
MH: That is a perfect meal.
JS: What would you do? If you’re being executed tomorrow?
MH: I think I might have to go to the charcuterie route because it’s got everything I would want. I would have crusty bread and crispy crackers and honey comb with really nice honey, like golden honey. Some fig compote. A bunch of different berries and fruits and slices of Honeycrisp apple and –
JS: So many nutritious things! Where’s the cheese?
MH: The cheese is interspersed in there. It would definitely include cheeses from the Cypress Grove Creamery, Humboldt fog, and truffle. Some Drunken Goat, several different types of Manchego, a really nice English cheddar and a nice Irish cheddar to balance that out. And a really crisp Parmesan Reggiano.
JS: So you’re not doing a brie? You’re not going to have a triple cream?
MH: I don’t fuck with brie. I think I’ve had one too many that, that smell like a sweaty foot smell that just turned me off. I didn’t drop a Gorgonzola or a blue in there, so that definitely need at least one moldy cheese to round it out. I need something pungent. Speaking of feet. I don’t really like brie, but gave me the mold.
JS: Got it. The feet of the angels.
MH: The sweetie drop peppers. A little pickled onion.
JS: Do you do olives?
MH: I do olives. Yeah. And almonds, Marcona almonds, and walnuts.
JS: Oh my God. That sounds so good. We should just get ourselves excuted, I guess.
MH: Sure. If that’s how we get this, I guess that’s what we have to do. Writers have to make everything dramatic.
JS: My listeners don’t know this, but I know this about you: you are a great reader of all types of books, not just cookbooks. So I hope you will come back on and talk fiction with me, but also, anytime you have a cookbook to talk about I hope you will come back again because this has been so fun. Will you tell my listeners where they can find you online?
MH: Yes, I am on Twitter, often causing chaos there. I’m also on Instagram causing less chaos. Mostly just memes. And my website, which is being revamped, will be done by July 1st, I’m told, michellehart.com.
JS: And just so you know, no unsolicited whisk picks or she will block your ass.
MH: I mean, what kind of whisks are we talking about? It’s a felony to send someone an unsolicited whisk pick in the state of Texas. I’ll just go ahead and give you that legal disclaimer. I am not a lawyer, but I’ve heard it’s bad.
JS: Don’t do it, whisk-owning people.
JS: Thank you so much for being with me today. It has been a delight.
MH: It’s such a pleasure to be with you, always. And I will come back and talk about any book with you, any time.
Thanks for listening, Bookworms. For more information on this episode and links to all the books we discussed, go to our website. You can also follow us on Instagram. I’m your host, Julie Strauss, and you can find me on Instagram. If you loved this episode, as much as I loved making it, why not leave a review wherever you’re listening. Each review helps new listeners find my work, and I’m so grateful for your help.
Thanks for joining me today. And I will see you at the library.