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Host: Julie Strauss
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Guest: Nikki Furrer
Website/Instagram/Bend and Blaze Yoga

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Discussed in this episode:
Salt Fat Acid Heat: Mastering the Elements of Good Cooking by Samin Nosrat
A Woman’s Guide to Cannabis: Using Marijuana to Feel Better, Look Better, Sleep Better, and Get High Like a Lady by Nikki Furrer
A Really Good Day: How Microdosing Made a Mega Difference in My Mood, My Marriage, and My Life by Ayelet Waldman
Yoga Nidra
The Colombia Publishing Course
Tana French
Gillian Flynn
Where’d You Go, Bernadette? By Maria Semple
Salt Fat Acid Heat Netflix Show
Crossroads by Jonathan Franzen
Nancy Pearl
Freedom by Jonathan Franzen

Alice Waters Cookbooks (they’re all brilliant)
We Are What We Eat: A Slow Food Manifesto
The Art of Simple Food: Notes, Lessons, and Recipes from a Delicious Revolution
The Art of Simple Food II: Recipes, Flavor, and Inspiration from the New Kitchen Garden
Chez Pannisse Cooking
Chez Panisse Menu Cookbook
My Pantry: Homemade Ingredients That Make Simple Meals Your Own
The Pat Conroy Cookbook: Recipes and Stories of My Life
The Prince of Tides by Pat Conroy

 

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Hello. Bookworms welcome to the Best Book Ever, the podcast where we talk about your favorite books,]. I’m your host, Julie Strauss, nd today I’m thrilled to be talking to author, cannabis expert, and yoga teacher Nikki Furrer about why the lovely cookbook, “Salt, Fat, Acid, Heat” by Samin Nosrat is the Best Book Ever.

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Julie Strauss: Hi, Nikki, welcome to the Best Book Ever podcast!

Nikki Furrer: Hi! Thanks for having me. 

JS: It is my delight to have you. I am a huge fan of your work. Will you start by telling my listeners what it is that you do? 

NF: My book is called A Woman’s Guide to Cannabis: Using Marijuana to Look Better, Feel Better, Sleep Better and Get High Like a Lady. The original title was just “Get High Like a Lady,” and then it went from there. I’ve done a lot of things, but at one point in my thirties I owned an independent bookstore and I was just used to, you know, 10, 12 hours a day of standing behind the counter. And people walking in the door and being like, well, I’m looking for a book about this, I’m looking for a book about that. So, I was used to just finding people books. That’s what I did. And then the bookstore went how you expect those things to go, so I had to close it, and then decided to move to the mountains and sell weed because I had been responsible for the whole store for a long time, and I just wanted to not be responsible for a minute and hike. I moved to Colorado because at the time, my brother has seizures and he is severely autistic. And so I moved to Colorado so that I could get to CBD oil for him. So that was really the reason I moved to Colorado. And I was like, well, if I’m going to move to the mountains, might as well try something new. 

JS:  Because Colorado was the first legal weed state?

NF: This was 2014 the, it was only recreational state. Denver is not that far from St. Louis, which is where I live. California is a lot farther away. So, yeah, I went to Denver, and started working in dispensaries there. So I just went from retail to retail. I did not change much. I just went to a new city and stood behind the counter again. Being behind the dispensary counter, which is so much like the bookstore it’s unbelievable. Any independent booksellers that need a side job, just go to your local dispensary. It’s the exact same thing. People come in and tell you how they feel and what they’re looking for and it’s your job to find the right thing for them. Whether it’s weed or a book, it’s the exact same thing. And most of the time we really do need both. In the dispensary, I did not have a book to hand to people that looked like my mother, who had all of the same questions over and over again. CBD was just becoming a thing, and I knew there needed to be a book to give to new people before they walked in the dispensary. Just like you needed a crash course in how to order a latte when Starbucks became a thing. I just knew right off the bat exactly what the book needed to be. And because I’ve worked in publishing, I was able to just send a text message to my friend who’s an agent and say, wouldn’t it be funny if there was a book called Get High Like a Lady. And he was like, yeah, that is funny. Write up a proposal. So I did, and then he sent it out to publishers and, my editor at Workman had a list on her desk of book ideas that she was looking for and women and weed was one of those ideas; she was looking for something like this. Getting a book published by a publisher really is like getting struck by lightning, but that’s how it works. Somebody has to be looking for the book that you want to write, and sort of how that works out. And then we just came up with this and it really has been exactly what I wanted it to be: that guidebook for people that first time they’re coming in so that they know what strain to get, they know whether to buy hand cream, or a vape pen. They know how much of the brownie to eat. It sort of answers all those beginner questions. 

JS: What is the difference in recommending cannabis products to women instead of men? 

NK: It really is a different. Number one, men don’t have menopause; men don’t go through menstruation. Women have a lot more pain and issues on a regular basis than men do. Especially women at a certain age group, their standards are a little different. My peers – I’m 47 – my peers are picky. They have been around a while, they know what they like. They know what they don’t like. They don’t want a bad hand cream that’s greasy and gets all over their clothes and some hippie made. There’s a way to make good hippie topicals. It is possible, but sometimes they just don’t come out. Men, I have noticed in the dispensary, especially men that are my age, you go, how did you like the strain that you bought? They say, Oh, it was good. I got high. That’s it. You ask a woman and she’s like, well, it smelled a little, and these were the effects, and then the next time I tried it, blah, blah, blah. You just get more detail and she has paid attention more and she’s more aware of the experience and what happened and what the product is like. So, when it comes to market research on cannabis products, I always ask women because men, men just ask, did I get high? That’s the only thing that they think about. Women think about the whole experience. So that’s why I appreciate their input, on everything. 

JS: Do you notice that most women come in for some sort of pain management or pain relief and then they eventually venture into recreational usage? 

NF: I’m not one of those people that doesn’t enjoy getting high. I think it’s fun. I like it. I think that’s part of the medicine. I’m not afraid of it. There are other people, if you’ve ever read Ayelet Waldman’s book about LSD, she hates getting high. Hates it. But she micro doses. There are some people that don’t enjoy it. So I think it’s a personal thing. If you like the feeling of getting hot then it’s, I mean, it can be medicinal. For me, it’s an antidepressant. It makes me feel better. I do sort of think all recreational use is medicinal, as long as it’s not overused. I think overuse is a problem. But I’ve got a lot of men coming in, and men have pain. I had one guy in a biker jacket. in Illinois in a dispensary, he was crying because the topical that we had put on the market was helping his back pain. He was thrilled. And I had not thought about a man for a second when I designed that product. It just worked for him. So, I think there is, you know, a lot of gender neutral stuff with this, but, I do think women, just because they’ve got menstrual cramps every month, I do think they might be a little bit more focused on pain just from that alone. But I do think more women focused on sleep too. And insomnia. Men don’t really think about using the marijuana for sleep as much as women do. 

JS: Tell us about the yoga classes that you teach. 

NF: So during lockdown, I got really bored and decided to do yoga teacher training because I, for years, have gotten high and gone to yoga. I thought that was the main place where you smoked weed was in the parking lot of the yoga studio. I thought everyone was doing this. I did not know everyone was not doing this. I haven’t gone to a yoga class not high in my whole life, and I’ve been going to yoga since I was 25. It’s always been a combination for me. And it’s just lately – I mean, with 2020, you can remember how bad it was – restorative yoga became my thing, instead of the sort of faster, more hectic, you know, regular yoga. I don’t do hot yoga. I’m morally opposed to it and I’ll fight you to the death. But Vinyasa, I get, and I do that every once in a while. That’s sort of my strength building and all that. I don’t really enjoy it, but I do it because I know I need it. But the restorative is the one that I really enjoy. I think rest and relaxation is good. I have had tumors on my adrenal glands that sort of trigger hormonal responses. My adrenaline will just sort of go off. Nothing’s coming at me; there’s no threat, but all of a sudden, my body thinks there’s a threat. So, because of the tumors I have to emphasize stress reduction and relaxation to keep my body in shape. And last summer that, you know, nobody could do anything. That’s all we did was gather in my friend’s backyard. She had a spot in her yard where there used to be a tennis court. So it was, you know, the, the big rectangle grass area that we could all spread out and get high and do yoga. And it was for a lot of us, it was the only time we were seeing people outside of our household all week. I think it sort of saved us last summer. And then it’s just sort of gone from there.

JS: I have taken one of your classes and I hope to take more and I have to say it was the most relaxed I think I have been since probably since 2016.

NF: Oh my gosh. 

JS: I think I slept that entire weekend. I just felt so good. 

NF: Well, when you combine the effect of the cannabis with the restorative yoga poses that calm the body, and then you add the yoga nidra on top of it, and you do that guided meditation, it just all sort of piles on top of each other to the point of like wringing you out like a rag. That is the whole point of it has just sort of shut down the brain, and allow you to rest. You need more than just sleep; you also need rest. And that yoga nidra, I think, really provides that. And the rest, I mean, it’s just as healing as water and sunshine. I think it’s super important. Yeah. 

JS: Agreed. And I don’t think that that’s something that our culture understands, is the need for rest. So, I would like to say to my listeners, even if you are not a cannabis user, do seek out a good yoga nidra if you are in need of rest, because it really is a magical experience. So let’s talk then about your reading life. Have you always been a reader? 

NF: Yes. Yes. I’ve always been a reader. I mean, they would punish me as a kid by taking away my books. I was not sent to my room because I was like, yay, that’s exactly what I wanted! So, when I finished my undergraduate degree, the last semester I saw a flyer on a bulletin board. This was the spring of 2001. I saw a flyer on the bulletin board about a publishing course at Columbia University in New York. And I was like, I wanna work in publishing! That would be fun. I want to do that in New York. So I applied and I got in. If you want to work in publishing – everybody wants to be an editor, but, let me tell you, publicists have more fun. I swear. If you want to sort of get into publishing – I met David Foster Wallace, and we went to the Rolling Stone offices. We lunched in the Conde Nast offices. It’s fabulous. But then the whole summer you are turning in your resume for assistant entry-level jobs everywhere you can. And that’s when you’re looking. Do I want to be an agent? Do I want to be an editor? Do I want to be a publicist? I have to go be one of those people’s assistant to get in there. And then at the end of the summer, everybody in the course gets a job somewhere in publishing and then they all move to apartments together in Brooklyn. So, yeah, so that’s how I got into publishing, and that’s where you meet people that are obsessed with science fiction and fantasy and that’s all they read, but they know everything. There were people there that just loved kids’ books. That was their thing. YA was not big when we were there; that came later. But you know, those people that only read YA, that are editors, that’s all they do is YA. There are agents, that’s all they do. So, it’s a spot for everyone who likes to read anything. I like well-written commercial fiction. That’s my, that’s my genre. That’s where I like to play.

JS: Such as what?

NF: There’s some historical fiction that I love is some that just leaves me cold. If I’m going to run into a bookstore and grab something to read, I’m going to grab a mystery. I could have a whole bookshelf full of mysteries. If I’m headed to the beach and I just want, yeah, thrillers mysteries. I do kind of like the boy books. I love Tana French. If there’s a new Tana French, I’ll go to the end of the earth to get my hands on that. What else? Gillian Flynn, of course. Maria Semple is one of my absolute favorites. I love funny. Where’d You Go, Bernadette? That’s sort of my lane, I think.

JS: Were you able to curate your bookstore according to your tastes? 

NF: No. Why would I ever do that? I’m not the only customer. I have to pay rent. When I had the bookstore, I definitely read more widely, just whatever was coming out. Whatever NPR talked about, I had to know, because people would come in the store and go, I heard it on NPR, I don’t remember the title, but it was about this. And from there I go, oh yeah, I know. I had to be more up on everything at the time. I definitely had a really good cookbook section, cause that’s what I love. So independent bookstores are definitely a sort of whatever the buyers and owners are catering to. But you do want to have the books that everybody’s looking for.

JS: Since you don’t have the bookstore anymore, has your reading life, do you feel like it’s missing something now? Like, since you don’t have to keep up with what everyone is doing, do you sort of miss those genres that you wouldn’t read on your own or do you really still read very widely?

NF: I don’t miss having to read books I don’t like. I don’t mind letting go of that and just focusing on books that I do like. I mean, at the time at the bookstore, I would take photos. I just had galleys stacked on my kitchen table and I couldn’t sit and enjoy the whole book. I had to just look through it as fast as I could, and see what was, and get a sense of it, and then put it down and move on to the next one. There was not really time to appreciate and enjoy. It was just sort of knowing. Are people going to come in looking for this book? Is NPR going to talk about this book? Is Oprah going to talk about this book? Do I need to order 10 copies or do I need to order 50? That’s not thinking about do I enjoy this story? What do I think about these characters? There was none of that. So I do think now I just get to enjoy it.

JS: How did you find the book we are discussing today? Salt, Fat, Acid, Heat. 

NF: How did I find it? NPR, of course. I heard something about it and that, I mean, every season in publishing, there are just a couple of books that it seems like that’s what everybody’s talking about. And this was one of those books that even before it came out, people were like, oh my God, it’s so great. I got a copy of it as soon as it came out and it just blew me away. I just love, I love cookbooks, but this, I have not seen anything like this, except for Alice Waters. It’s not so much about here’s a bunch of recipes. It’s really like, well, this is how to cook. No matter what ingredients you happen to have on hand, you can make something, you don’t have to go get these 10 specific things and do it exactly this way. I like books that teach you how to cook. 

JS: You are only the second podcast guest of mine who chose a cookbook. I’m always thrilled to sort of find you unicorn people, because it tells me that you have a different relationship with cookbooks than just, I need to make bolognaise, where is that recipe. Tell me if I’m wrong. I read them cover to cover like novels. Do you? 

NF: Yeah, they’re romantic to me. These are romance novels. I love to read about people that love food. I realize that comes from my own experience. My grandmother never cooked. I never saw her cook a meal. She and my grandfather would go out to dinner every single night. Monday night they would just have drinks and snacks and whatever leftovers they brought home all week. I mean, even holidays, other people brought the food to my grandma’s house. She never cooked. My mom cooks, but she only knows how to make the diet version of things. She knows how to take out the sugar and replace it with applesauce. We had macrobiotic food in the seventies and eighties. Part of that is because of my brother. She was trying different things to try to help him.  But she’s always just been on a diet or in whatever. Whether it’s, you know, fat is bad or carbs are bad or sugars are bad, or paleo or whatever the newest thing was that she was all over. So she knows how to make things that don’t taste good. So I, as an adult, didn’t know how to cook. I didn’t know. I couldn’t make a grilled cheese. I could make macaroni from a box, cause it had instructions. I didn’t know how to cook anything. And I would go eat other people’s food and be like, how do you know how to do this? It just killed me. So I had to learn how to cook from cookbooks. I think that’s what motivates me with the cookbooks is learning how to cook and cook well. 

JS: I don’t know if you’ve noticed this, but I have found that even if I’m reading a cookbook and it’s a recipe where, for example, I loathe green beans, but I find that in a well-written cookbook, I will still read the green bean recipes just for the fact that I will learn something about it. If it’s a good cookbook, which this one is, I’ll learn why the author is making that food choice, which will then be applicable to other recipes. That’s to me, the sign of a really well-written cookbook, is even the recipe that I am thinking, as I’m reading it, I’m never ever going to make this, but it’s still interesting to read because I’m still learning something about food and taste and food preparation.

NF: Exactly. Exactly. And that’s why I like Salt Fat Acid Heat, because in this book she clearly knows exactly what she’s talking about, but she says the same thing. I used to think I didn’t like that, it’s only because I have the bad version of it. Here’s the good version of it. So that’s specifically why I like this book in particular. And the illustrations are so cute. 

JS: Okay. I’m so glad you brought that up because you would think that hand drawn illustrations would make it feel childish, but I found it really had the opposite effect. It made sometimes very difficult information so accessible. In particular for me, the salt chapter, where she draws out – well she doesn’t, she has an illustrator – but the drawings of how salt moves. I don’t know, I don’t have a science brain. So seeing those pictures made me think, oh, that’s what’s happening. 

NF: Exactly. I mean, the illustrations, I think are at least half of why this book is so great. There are even fold out pages, with charts and things to follow. I learned how to make a lot of good things from the Alice Waters cookbook. But this book is the reason I always grab lemons at the store. Now, lemons are in my list of things I always have to have in the house. I never thought about acid before. I just had an old bottle of balsamic vinegar sitting around that I would just throw on things. She changed a lot of things about the way I cook. 

JS: Tell me some things that have made from this book? Or since it’s not such a prescriptive cookbook, tell me maybe how your cooking has changed because of this?

NF: Well, the lemons for sure. The salt, fat and acid was is what goes into the dish. And then the heat is just –  I burned everything. My smoke detector goes off like three times a week. I already know how to open my doors and windows exactly to get it through. I get high and wander off and away from the stove. She sort of helped me get it together and think it through before I start making stuff. Sometimes I just wander over to the fridge and go, can I mess with and start? And it just sort of goes from there. She sort of got me organized to the point where I’m like, all right, let’s plot it out beforehand and keeping the temperatures lower so I don’t burn it. She really had changed a lot of things for me. But especially using enough salt. If you’ve seen her, she’s got a Netflix show too. And she throws in handfuls of salts. Oh, I love it.

JS: That was what prompted me to get the book because I watched that show and I almost fainted when I saw her putting in those handfuls of salts. I thought this sounds terrible, but it’s not. And she explains it in her book that you just have to know when and what kind.

NF: My dream restaurant, if I ever win the lottery, I’m going to use it to start a food truck. And it’s going to be called A Little Too Salty. Everything I serve is just going to be a little too salty. Cause that’s the way I like it. I don’t like chocolate ice cream until I can taste the salt in there. 

JS: By chance have you made the tahdig that she talks about? I hope I’m saying that right. She talks about it on her show. That rice dish where it forms that crust. 

NF: No, I was wanting to, but no, I haven’t.

JS: Oh, shoot. I haven’t either. And that’s the one I really, really want to make. 

NF: That’s on my list. My next project that I want to start was I thought I wanted to figure out how to make fried chicken. And then I tried it once and realized I don’t want to make fried chicken. I don’t enjoy it at all. But the next project I want to get into, you know, we all did bread last year and now I still have yeast from the yeast shortage.  I finally found something. I never made any more bread, but now I want to make pasta. I want to make pasta and the flour and make it roll it.

[a sudden boom interrupts our conversation.]

NF: That’s thunder. Oh, yeah, you’re in California. You don’t know what this is like.

JS: Another thing I wanted to bring up with you that I felt was actually very similar between her book and your book…

NF: There are similarities, because I went to Workman and was like, I think it should have illustrations, because look at this bad ass cookbook. So I begged for illustrations because of this book.

JF: Oh, really? Okay. And the other thing that I noticed that is similar between your two books is both of you have this sort of zest for learning new things. And I think that is what is so appealing about both of them is there’s no pretension of right and wrong. There is, in her book, this is delicious. And in your book, this is helpful and lovely. And then the next question is, how do I do this at home? And there’s something about that unabashed enjoyment of your topic and fearlessness to ask questions that I think make her cookbook and your cannabis book so appealing because they’re both really, really informative, but not intimidating.

NF: I appreciate that. And I like that and I think I see that in her for sure. Right. It’s just the joy of food and there is just nothing else. There is no pretentiousness there’s no – cultural appropriation isn’t even the right word, but sort of like cultural fetishization, maybe? Some people are really into, you know, worrying about whether it’s authentic or whatever. Whether or not Anthony Bourdain would approve. But he actually has that too. He does not need pretentiousness either. Just make it good. My goal with my book was to make it as approachable as hers, because that’s all that really matters at the end of it. I mean, with the marijuana also does it work? Sure, is it effective, but then does it taste good? I think as long as that’s just your goal is to make the best thing you can make and not worry about is it fancy enough, is it trendy enough? Then I think you’re free to just really enjoy it. 

JS: So Nikki, tell me what you’re reading these days? 

NF: At the moment I am currently reading a new Jonathan Franzen book coming out in October called Crossroads. I saw on Facebook that Nancy Pearl had an advanced copy of it a few months ago. And I got very jealous that I did not have one. I used all of my publishing contacts that I had and found someone who snuck into someone’s office and stole an advance copy for me and sent it over. And so I finally got my hands on it, and it is just as good, or better than, Freedom. I’m savoring and enjoying because I don’t want to rush through it and then be at the end of it. That’s what happened last time. I read Freedom in like three days and it was like gorging myself on too much pizza. This one I’m trying to drag it out. So I haven’t gotten too far into it, but it’s just, yeah. He kills me.

JS: You were saying before we started recording that you have sort of a complicated relationship with him as an author. 

NF: Jonathan Franzen is from St. Louis, where I’m from. The same suburb. And so he gets, you know, a lot of local attention that he does not enjoy. He wants us to know he has no interest in being associated with St. Louis. I do respect him for the fact that he does not need people to like him. You know, when people say, I don’t really care, if you like me, but they’re trying really hard to be likable? He doesn’t have that. He’s not trying to be likable, ever, in any way. He is just doing his own thing and watching his birds. So I do like that. But it may make themdifficult to like and work with. So, as a person, I can’t say he’s one of my favorites. We had a lot of authors come through the bookstore that were very friendly and engaging and nice. And they would draw things on our bathroom walls and all kinds of stuff. So we did have some that were engaging. He’s just not very into that. But his books just blow me away. I think Freedom was probably the best book I’ve ever read. And this is the second. I’m not super into literary fiction. The more awards it gets, the more I’m assuming I’m not gonna have fun with it. So I don’t read all of the literary fiction.  But he’s one of my absolute favorites. I just love it. 

JS: What other cookbooks do you rely on? What are some of your favorite? You mentioned Alice Waters. Do you have other favorites? 

NF: So the best, if you ever want to read a cookbook, that’s just about the love of food and telling the stories, Pat Conroy.  Pat Conroy died a few years ago. He wrote The Prince of Tides,  and just a whole bunch of like Southern ridiculousness and he has a cookbook out. 

JS: No, I know exactly. My mother just gave it to me.

NF: Oh my God. I, as soon as we’re done here, sit down and read that. I still make my vinaigrette dressing the way he does. He describes a trip to Italy where the waiter sort of with the salt and lemon juice and everything just perfectly dressed. The book is structured – so, it’s Pat Conroy who can describe, anything to make it sound like it’s just dripping in Southern humidity. It just, every chapter is one recipe or one dish, and it’s where he learned it, who taught it to him, who he ate it with, the story behind it, whatever it is. So he’s just got these great, he likes to cook, too,  and he did actually live in Italy for a while. So a lot of them are Italian recipes. But a lot of them are Southern. When I say Southern, I mean like the Carolinas, the bayou. This is like Bayou Southern, this isn’t  Atlanta Southern. It’s more like saltwater  fresh fish than it is,  biscuits and gravy or anything. Yeah, if you just want to read a book for the poetry of food, that’s the book. 

JS: Why don’t you tell my listeners where they can find you and your work online? 

NF: My book is available wherever books are sold. I’m not great at the online. My website is there, it doesn’t really do anything. I’m on Instagram and Facebook.  and then I’m just on Facebook, under my own name,  and not, oh, and then,  Friday night yoga classes are on a website called Bend and Blaze. My class is Friday night at 7 mountain time. Whenever that time is for you. 

JS: And I suppose we should specify that if yoga that makes you sleepy is not your gig, Bend and Blaze also offers more energetic classes and that kind of thing, for whatever your needs.

NF: I think they’ve got at least one or two a day, and yes, I’m the oldest teacher on there by at least 15 years. These are young, pretty people that have taken pretty pictures of themselves doing yoga outside. And they do fast-paced side plank, sort of regular Vinyasa yoga every other day. So yeah, don’t come to me for that. I’m not going to talk you through a plank for five minutes. I’m just going to let you lay down. 

JS: That said, for anyone who is hesitant, maybe if you haven’t even tried yoga, an online class is a fantastic way, as I was telling you before we started, to be free of the pressure of being surrounded by other people. An online class is wonderful because you just lose all self-consciousness because there is nobody looking at you. Probably, they’re not looking at you in person anyway, but we’re all convinced that they are.

NF: Except when I went back to my regular yoga studio after lockdown, like, all right, we’re going to do two classes again with masks, I went. I think I was doing what I do at home, which is, I take what they’re saying as a nice suggestion of what I could be doing at the moment, but it’s really, you know, not a rule. And at some point, that yoga teacher comes by and she goes, so you just, you feel like you’re still at home, right?

JS: Oh, God. So I guess what that means is when I do go back to in-person yoga classes, I can’t wear pajamas like I did when I went to your class? That would be embarrassing. Nikki, I want to thank you for joining me today has been so much fun talking to you and I hope you’ll come back anytime you have a book you want to tell me about.

NF: Yeah, absolutely. I will do this anytime. It’s been fun.

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Thanks for listening, Bookworms! You can follow the podcast on Instagram. I’m your host, Julie Strauss, and you can find me on Instagram.

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Thanks for joining me today. And I will see you at the library.

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